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First step toward turbo

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CFoss View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote CFoss Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: First step toward turbo
    Posted: 02 December 2009 at 10:29am

Hey all. I'm kinda excited today. Hopefully I didn't make a mistake, but who knows.

 

I've been looking at turbos for my 3.4 for a while now. Ebay chinese t3/t4 50 trim/.63 ar models look good, but there is way too much bad karma out there to buy a $200 turbo and slap it on and call it good. Plus, they don't have water cooled center sections, and I'm bad at changing oil, so coking would be a concern.

 

The good t3/t4s from turbonetics/garrett cost $1000, which is what I have planned for the whole deal.

 

So, I researched MHI (Mitsubishi) turbos and decided that a TD05HR-16G6-9T would fit well. The map is very much the same as the 50trim T4, and the 9CM2 turbine is like a A/R of .65, a touch bigger than most .63t3 people are using...cost??? 365CDN delivered. Hopefully it's as advertised!

 

Chay

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Capt Fiero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 December 2009 at 11:54am
Congrats.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Dr.Fiero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 December 2009 at 5:32pm
I had the best results on mine when I had a simple rising rate FPR (1lb boost = 1lb rise in fuel pressure), and a mallory 685 box doing boost retard through a second separate 2bar MAP.

It was simple.  It was uncool'ish.  IT WORKED!

Then I started to get fancy with redoing all my timing tables, fuel tables....  bla bla bla....  I got slower.  :(

KISS principle frequently works.  For me it did.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote CFoss Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 December 2009 at 8:12pm
Did you ever figure out why...was it because you were leaner with the fpr? Did you get slower because you were more conservative with the tune on the timing side?

How much did the fpr andf mallory box cost? I'm wondering because I'd like to go to the '7730, so I'd be tuning anyway.

Seems like it would be ok, but not optimal in all conditions because the boost could be on with part throttle in which case you'd either be lean with full throttle, or rich with part throttle. How the heck does the thing work?


Chay
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Dr.Fiero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 December 2009 at 7:01am
Never did figure out why.

As for part/full throttle, remember that neither system cares where your foot is (the TPS only reports the 'change or rate of change' in throttle to the ECM, it really doesnt care what the actual position is) - the AFR and timing is based solely on RPM and MAP readings.

Is that what you meant by "the thing", or was there a different 'thing'? 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote CFoss Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 December 2009 at 10:06am

You're an english teacher too. Ok, sorry for the vague pronoun.

The thing was the fpr, but I meant from a systems point of view...how does it integrate. I understand it boosts fuel pressure for manifold pressure increases, no big surpise there, it delivers more fuel.

I get what you mean by the afr and rpm. What I mean is that to fully deterine flow you need map, rpm and iat. With only a map signal, the fpr could be fueling too much or not enough, so it's kinda like a fudger, or good enough. Am I getting that right?

I guess given that the AFR can be between 12.5-13.5 on boost it's not a huge deal. What was the cost, do you remember??

 

Thanks,

 

C

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Dr.Fiero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 December 2009 at 11:33am
Yep - that's about it!  "Close enough" is frequently good enough.  ;)

Sure, if you can nail down your fuel table perfectly, you WILL go faster (as proved by some of the fastest street car shootouts).  The trick is..  getting it spot on.  Something I could never quite nail down.


Oh, the IAT does come into play for accuracy (especially in a turbo setup where you can go from OAT to 300F in a matter of seconds!), but isn't a total requirement.  A lot of the TBI setups from the factory don't even use it.

I added (moved really) my IAT probe over to the far side of my upper intake plenum.  Figured there's no point in measuring the air temp over at the filter!


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Post Options Post Options   Quote CFoss Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 December 2009 at 11:49am

Understood. I will move my iat to the area preceeding the throttle body somewhere. It's advised to use a open type for the turbo too, because they respond better (Quicker) to rapidly changing intake temps.

 

I looked at the density change from 0 to 200 deg F. It's not really that much, like 23% for that massive range, so I can see why it's not used sometimes ((0+460)/200+460)). I was kinda blown away how little it changed actually. I bet the 02 sensor can make up for it in most cases, then at wot it's not used anyway. when it's cold it's hard to detonate, so the lean mix doesn't really hurt you. It all makes some kind of sense.

 

I'll check into it. I'm still kind of curious to see if I'm up to the challenge of tuning it. I'm looking to trying the process after reading so much material.

 

Chay

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Post Options Post Options   Quote CFoss Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 December 2009 at 11:52am

One more thing...looks like I got boned on the turbo.

 

I saw some compressor maps which looked good, rated in CFM and I bought it....but they are crap. I should have known. When I got the real maps, rated in KG/second, the turbo compressor is a bit small. The turbine should be ok. Crap. I'm going to try it anyway, but I don't expect much in the higher rpm ranges(4500 and up). Oh well, it's a street car and I don't like going that fast anyway, maybe it will suit me. I'm just going to have to watch the iat's when I first go at it.

 

Chay

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Dr.Fiero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 December 2009 at 2:30pm

Originally posted by CFoss CFoss wrote:

Understood. I will move my iat to the area preceeding the throttle body somewhere.

I simply drilled another hole in the end if the plenum, right beside the power brake hose.  My (88) manifold had an extra boss/drill pad right there!  Tapped out to (3/8?) NPT, installed sensor, lengthened wires, done.

 

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Post Options Post Options   Quote CFoss Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 December 2009 at 3:14pm

Not a half bad idea. It would get it away from a congested area too.

 

I like.

 

C

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Patrick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 December 2009 at 6:32pm

Originally posted by Dr.Fiero Dr.Fiero wrote:

I added (moved really) my IAT probe over to the far side of my upper intake plenum.  Figured there's no point in measuring the air temp over at the filter!

A related question... At what air temperature reading from the IAT (MAT sensor) does the ECM no longer richen the mixture for "cold" weather driving?

And can that be artificially induced by grounding or shorting the IAT?

You can probably see where I'm going with this. After the engine has been running for a few minutes, I'd like to fool the ECM into thinking it's a hot day and the engine is all warmed up to see if gas mileage can be improved.

[EDIT] After posting I came across this interesting article about relocating the MAT sensor. That article is one of many informative tips to be found Here.

 

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Post Options Post Options   Quote CFoss Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 December 2009 at 11:29am

I'm not sure abot the ecm programming, but the iat can read temps down to -40.


I suspect that the closed loop ecm feedback will override your change in the iat signal. The ecm makes a best guess on the airflow with the rpm, map, and iat. Then it injects and checks the o2. Then it modifies the signal via a fast and slow feedback system (BLM, INT values). So I doubt you'll make a dent.

Unless, of course, you run open loop, but that's another story.

Opinions?

Chay

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Dr.Fiero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 December 2009 at 12:06pm
If you 'tell' the ECM that you're at -40 for more than 60 seconds (?) you'll also set an error flag (CEL).  Of course, you're trying to go the other way around - just don't exceed something like 220 for too long or you'll set an error again.

You could also just switch to megasquirt and a wideband, and eliminate all the antiquated tuning problems.  ;)

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Post Options Post Options   Quote wayneh70 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 December 2009 at 11:02pm
I found a great item on Ebay that bypasses the whole pesky ECM/fuel table mess, I'm going to get one for my Fiero! (when I get a Fiero...soon now   )

Good for a chuckle anyway...


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Post Options Post Options   Quote CFoss Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 December 2009 at 9:55am

"Will the turbo simulator require cleaning or maintenance?
Yes, but not really!"

 

Now that's some funny !hit.

 

C

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Romeo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 December 2009 at 1:09pm
Hey, what would you guys do in the case of extreme ram-air induction? As the ECU would have to self-correct not on a trip-by-trip basis, but by speed.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Capt Fiero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 December 2009 at 8:21pm

I don't care what kind of ram air you are never going to get over 1psi boost in your intake plenum without a mechanical device to raise the boost. 

      At best my holly scoop takes me from a negative pressure in the plenum to near zero when I am at a 130mph cruise.   

      If you by some crazy way, all you would need to cheat the system is a rising rate fuel pressure reg, and a check valve so the 1 bar map did not see boost.  With the minor amount of extra air the car would be fine.  The rising rate fpr would actually not even be needed until you found a way to make more than 2lbs of boost which is a LOT for a ram air system, if achievable at all.  

      Now if you manage to find a way to do it, please document it and sell the documents.  As everyone on the Fiero planet will be doing that mod.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Romeo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 December 2009 at 7:00am
Originally posted by Capt Fiero Capt Fiero wrote:

I don't care what kind of ram air you are never going to get over 1psi boost in your intake plenum without a mechanical device to raise the boost. 

      At best my holly scoop takes me from a negative pressure in the plenum to near zero when I am at a 130mph cruise.   

      If you by some crazy way, all you would need to cheat the system is a rising rate fuel pressure reg, and a check valve so the 1 bar map did not see boost.  With the minor amount of extra air the car would be fine.  The rising rate fpr would actually not even be needed until you found a way to make more than 2lbs of boost which is a LOT for a ram air system, if achievable at all.  

      Now if you manage to find a way to do it, please document it and sell the documents.  As everyone on the Fiero planet will be doing that mod.


Stryker has a Ram-Air system that's producing an extra 200HP at top speed (Not sure what that translates into in psi) and the Audi R8/R10 produces 10% more power at top speed (Then again, the inlets on that thing are mammoth). I bet someone with an over-the-top car like Johnny-boy could find a way.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote CFoss Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 December 2009 at 11:26am

Extra 200hp on what? A 20L engine?

Assume 1.5cfm/hp, extra flow would be 300cfm.

That's a lot more flow.

 

10% power I can see, at some astronomical speed, unachievable on our streets, thus rendered useless.

 

As far as your fueling question, it would not correct on speed. As the capt says it would be ok. It might be a bit lean at ultra high speed and WOT, but that's it.

It's been said the ecm can trim out 6-8% variance due to learning, so part throttle would be ok.

Chay

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