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Engine Breather - Bypass - oil leaks

Printed From: West Coast Fieros
Category: Technical Topics Forum
Forum Name: Technical Questions and Discussions
Forum Description: Got a technical question about your fiero? ask it here.
URL: http://www.westcoastfieros.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=2109
Printed Date: 05 May 2025 at 7:48pm
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Topic: Engine Breather - Bypass - oil leaks
Posted By: kharmata
Subject: Engine Breather - Bypass - oil leaks
Date Posted: 28 September 2010 at 4:52pm
I have a question about when you disconnect the Engine
Breather from the valve cover to the Intake (before TB).
Since there is a vacuum to the engine block (during
throttle open) would it be possible that a loss of this
vacuum to your engine could result in slight oil loss
through once before unrecognized leaky seals...?



Replies:
Posted By: Patrick
Date Posted: 28 September 2010 at 5:41pm

Just to clarify... Your PCV valve is still connected, isn't it? That's where the vacuum is applied.

 



Posted By: kharmata
Date Posted: 28 September 2010 at 7:29pm
Yes it is.  Ahhhhh so the breather tube is minimal by comparison then...??      But wouldn't disconnecting one counteract the affects of the other...?


Posted By: Patrick
Date Posted: 28 September 2010 at 8:08pm

In theory, the tube you're referring to is there to supply filtered air to the crankcase that the PCV valve is sucking through into the intake manifold.

However, as you've probably noticed from the residue left behind, oily crankcase vapors often go the other way into the opening of the throttle body and muck it up.

One solution is to use an oil catch-can. Another is to use a separate small air filter instead of having the tube you're referring to connected to its factory location.

 



Posted By: kharmata
Date Posted: 28 September 2010 at 8:55pm
I am not convinced that this should be disconnected.


Posted By: Patrick
Date Posted: 28 September 2010 at 8:57pm

Originally posted by kharmata kharmata wrote:

I am not convinced that this should be disconnected.

I certainly wasn't trying to convince you. Mine's connected.

 



Posted By: Romeo
Date Posted: 28 September 2010 at 9:36pm
As is mine. I'd leave her be, Kevin.

-------------
Never shift into reverse without a back-up plan.


Posted By: Capt Fiero
Date Posted: 28 September 2010 at 11:36pm

This mod that Kevin has, has been done to Mine, Brian's, Tims and several other Fiero's including Nigel's before he left.  It keeps the engine from inhaling HOT Oily air under WOT situations. It saves the IAC from getting mucked up and improves both throttle response and gas mileage.

Kevin's issue comes from the fact that he has fairly extensive amounts of blow-by from bad compression rings in his engine.   Its a catch 22, the blow-by is so bad that it is making the engine run poorly, so it should be removed to make the engine run better, but on the flip side, the smoke is now exiting the K&N Filter connected to the valve cover as well as allowing a small bit of oil from the crank case to build up in the small valve cover breather filter. 



-------------
Capt Fiero
88 Fiero GT 5spd V6
Eight Fifty Seven GT V8 5spd.


Posted By: Patrick
Date Posted: 28 September 2010 at 11:58pm

Short of rebuiding the engine, sounds like an oil catch-can installed in-line with Kevin's breather hose is the route to go then.

I made a catch-can years ago and used it on a 1970 Nova that was puking copious amounts of oil into the air filter housing. Worked great.

 



Posted By: kharmata
Date Posted: 29 September 2010 at 10:20am
Originally posted by Capt Fiero Capt Fiero wrote:

the blow-by is so bad that it is
making the engine run poorly, so it should be removed to
make the engine run better, but on the flip side, the
smoke is now exiting the K&N Filter connected to the
valve cover as well as allowing a small bit of oil from
the crank case to build up in the small valve cover
breather filter. 



Actually my engine doesn't run that bad as far as I am
concerned and for some reason I am getting better fuel
economy with the tube thing left connected to my intake -
as for my K&N filter I only had this on for about a week
and is still clean. Also I really did not like the small
amount of smoke visible in my rear view mirror - not too
mention the stink of it coming into the car at slower
speeds.

Thanks for the feedback guys - more is always better!


Posted By: kharmata
Date Posted: 29 September 2010 at 10:24am
Originally posted by Romeo Romeo wrote:

As is mine. I'd leave her be,
Kevin.


I tend to like leaving factory designed stuff alone
especially with engines - you would hope that engineers
are
paid the big bucks to do things right - and yes at the
same
time I agree some stuff can always be improved (but does
one improvement justify the potential detriment of
something else...)

Cheers!

Oh and we sort of got off topic here. I was more
concerned about the Crankcase vacuum state as opposed to
free air state and how this may affect oil seal leaks.
Anymore theories on this matter would be appreciated


Posted By: Dawg
Date Posted: 29 September 2010 at 12:53pm
I think it's reasonable to assume that IF you have bad rings, you are going to get more "blow by" into the crank case if you're applying vacuum via the intake system.  Not something you want.

In a good engine I think the slight vacuum help evacuated the pressure in an environmentally safe way by burning it before it enters the atmosphere.

In a not so good engine I think you need to adapt to the situation to keep it running as long as possible.  I would remove and vent to the atmosphere through some sort of passive filtration if it were me.

Hook it back up once you get a good engine in there.

The Dawg


-------------
You dream it up....I'll make it


Posted By: Dr.Fiero
Date Posted: 29 September 2010 at 3:03pm
Another thing you can do, is stick the K&N back in there, then wrap a wrist sweat band around it.If you still get too much smoke after that - you've simply got SUCH a worn out engine, it's time for new rings (etc) anyhow.

As for the question of engineers getting paid the big bucks to do it right...  well...   they DID.  Then the engine kept running for ANOTHER 20 years past it's normal usage and it wore out.  Simple.

Regarding the crankcase being under vacuum.  That's where it normally is (well, is supposed to be) when it's running right.  As the thing wears out, the blowby exceeds the PCV's capacity to pull one.  I mean, we're not talking 15" of mercury or anything here (while you might see 20" in a high end race only engine).  It might be 1 or 2".  Just enough to keep the crud in the air being pulled out. 

Easy test - pull the breather out.  Stick your thumb over it, and rev the engine to about 1.5-2K and hold it.  Thumb get slightly pulled in after about 30 seconds?  You're probably OK.  No pull?  Worn out.



Posted By: kharmata
Date Posted: 29 September 2010 at 8:25pm

Thanks guys.

I am currently trying a middle ground.  Sort of what Patrick mentioned but without the catch can.  I installed a "t" section on the breather tube and connected my K&N filter so now the smoke is sucked up but the engine is paritally vented as well.  Not sure if this completely minimizes suck on the bad rings but I am sure it helps and also keeps the smoke exit to a minimum. 

Any other thoughts?



Posted By: Patrick
Date Posted: 30 September 2010 at 12:35am

Originally posted by kharmata kharmata wrote:

Not sure if this completely minimizes suck on the bad rings...

Honestly, there is not enough "suck" on that breather tube to affect crankcase vacuum at all.

It's the other tube, the one that's connected to the PCV valve and the intake manifold that supplies all the "suck".

 



Posted By: kharmata
Date Posted: 30 September 2010 at 12:10pm
Originally posted by Patrick Patrick wrote:


Honestly, there is not enough "suck" on that
breather tube to affect crankcase vacuum at all.


It's the other tube, the one that's connected
to
the PCV valve and the intake manifold that supplies all
the
"suck".


 



Exactly my point. With the breather open to free air the
pcv will never provide any vacuum to the crankcase...or
am
I wrong here?

FYI - My aircare (is there a better place to post this)

HC Driving 73ppm
CO Driving 0.6%
NOx Driving 906ppm
HC Idle     311ppm
CO Idle     0.84%
Result   Pass


Posted By: Patrick
Date Posted: 30 September 2010 at 12:43pm

Originally posted by kharmata kharmata wrote:

With the breather open to free air the pcv will never provide any vacuum to the crankcase...or am I wrong here?

It sounds to me like you've got it wrong.

The intake manifold is sucking air from the crankcase (through the PCV valve) whether you've got the other breather tube connected in front of your throttle body or not.

The following is taken from  http://autorepair.about.com/library/faqs/bl616h.htm - Here .

SYSTEM OPERATION:
The PCV system prevents blow-by gasses from entering the atmosphere by routing blow-by gases into the intake manifold through a vacuum controlled ventilating valve and a hose while allowing proper crankcase ventilation.

Blow-by gases mix with the air/fuel mixture and are burned during combustion. When the engine is running, fresh air is drawn into the crankcase through a tube or hose connected to the air cleaner housing.

This system is still the same as it was when it was first used in 1961.

Jeep CJ-7 PCV System Not Working
Jeep CJ-7 PCV System Not Working

PCV VALVE OPERATION: The PCV valve consists of needle valve, spring and housing.

When the engine is off: the spring holds the needle valve closed to stop vapors from entering the intake manifold.

When the engine is running: manifold vacuum unseats the needle valve allowing crankcase vapors to enter the intake manifold.

In case of a backfire in the intake manifold: the valve closes, stopping the back flow and preventing ignition of fumes in the crankcase.

During certain engine conditions more blow-by gases are created than the ventilator valve can handle. The excess is returned through the air intake tube to the air cleaner and carburetor where it is burned in the engine.

A quick check of the system can he made by pulling the end of the PCV valve out of the valve cover and placing a finger over the end of the valve to block the air flow, while the engine is idling.

  • A vacuum should be felt and the engine speed should drop approximately 50 rpm if the system is satisfactory and no further testing is necessary.
  • If there is no change in engine speed a clogged system is indicated, proceed to the next step.

To isolate the problem, remove the PCV valve from the hose and note vacuum felt and any change in idle speed.

  • If the ventilator hoses and carburetor passages are clear, a strong vacuum will be felt and the engine idle will change drastically or the engine will stall when the end of the hose is uncovered. If this occurs, the trouble is in the valve.
  • If the engine continues to idle approximately as it did before the hose was uncovered, the hoses or carburetor passages are blocked.

As for the other end, the air intake side, there is little that can go wrong. As long as the hose or breather filter is not clogged, air has to enter the system.

-------------------------------------

Kevin, I've indicated in red the part that especially applies to your situation.

 



Posted By: kharmata
Date Posted: 30 September 2010 at 12:48pm
Patrick, I get that part. But internally (crankcase) are
they not both opening into the same big space
(crankcase)...?

I think our perspectives are slightly different here.


(in everyday usage, vacuum is a volume of space that is
essentially empty of matter, such that its gaseous pressure
is much less than atmospheric pressure) Yes I get this
part.


Posted By: Patrick
Date Posted: 30 September 2010 at 12:52pm

Originally posted by kharmata kharmata wrote:

Patrick, I get that part. But internally (crankcase) are they not both opening into the same big space (crankcase)...?

I think our perspectives are slightly different here.

(In everyday usage, vacuum is a volume of space that is essentially empty of matter, such that its gaseous pressure is much less than atmospheric pressure) Yes I get this part.

I've added to my earlier post to try and make my point(s) clearer to you.

 



Posted By: kharmata
Date Posted: 30 September 2010 at 12:56pm
Excellent - thank you! Now I wonder if maybe my PCV is not
working at all??? Since gases escape from my breather hole
instead of fresh air being drawn in. Or my rings are so
bad that the blow by exceeds what the pcv can extract...?

ah now i see it quote: During certain engine conditions
more blow-by gases are created than the ventilator valve
can handle. The excess is returned through the air intake
tube to the air cleaner and carburetor where it is burned
in the engine. I maybe getting it finally!


Posted By: Patrick
Date Posted: 30 September 2010 at 1:01pm

Originally posted by kharmata kharmata wrote:

I maybe getting it finally!

About time!

Don't feel bad. It's a very simple system which is often completely misunderstood.

 



Posted By: kharmata
Date Posted: 30 September 2010 at 1:10pm
Originally posted by Patrick Patrick wrote:

Originally posted by kharmata kharmata wrote:

I maybe getting it
finally!

About time!

Don't feel
bad. It's a very simple system which is often completely
misunderstood.

 



And I just confirmed my PCV valve works
Thanks for sticking by me - no pun intended.


Posted By: Patrick
Date Posted: 30 September 2010 at 2:15pm

Kevin, if I had excessive blow-by which was resulting in the fouling up of the inside of my throttle body (TB), this is what I would either make or buy to install between the front valve cover (on a 2.8) and the fitting in front of the TB.

It's what I mentioned earlier, an oil catch-can.

In my home-made version I used years ago, I used plastic pot scrubber pads to provide the surface area for the suspended oil particles in the crankcase air to condense on. The oil then drips down and collects in the botton of the container. You'll notice the tube directing the oily air goes right down into the mesh material whereas the tube directing the "clean" air draws this air from the top of the container.

You require a way to drain/empty the collected oil out of it, but the container needs to be airtight while in operation.

On a properly operating PVC system (healthy engine), many people install a catch-can like this between the intake manifold and the PCV valve. This is to prevent a lot of the suspended oil in crankcase air from being sucked into the intake manifold/combustion chambers, yet still providing positive crankcase vacuum and the burning of crankcase gases.

On your worn engine, installing the catch-can where I've indicated instead would help reduce/eliminate your TB from being mucked up with oil due to excessive crankcase blow-by.

 



Posted By: kharmata
Date Posted: 30 September 2010 at 7:37pm

Very creative - So far I am just doing the breather thing and live with a bit of oil lube.   Cool idea though.
Best of all I wanna new/rebuilt motor and trany so I will suffer until it dies or gets replaced.




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